Why Don't People Like Justice League Season 1 and Batman Beyond Season 2?

[Raider969]

If this topic was done before, I apologize. So why is it that people don't like Justice League Season 1 as much as most of the other DCAU Seasons? I do like all of the Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, The New Batman Adventures and Batman Beyond seasons more and all of the Justice League Seasons after more too, but I believe Justice League Season 1 was good too. Was it because people thought Superman was too weak or they thought the stories in those episodes weren't as good as the earlier DCAU Seasons and the later Justice League Seasons?

Same thing with Batman Beyond Season 2. I heard from some people that Season 2 of Batman Beyond was the worst season of the show and wasn't as good as Seasons 1 or 3 because it was less dark and had more episodes focusing on school stuff. Is that true? Once again I do like all of the Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures Seasons more, but I think Season 2 of Batman Beyond was good too.

 

[Yojimbo]

Probably a combination of high expectations from fans for a new Justice League series and the creative team working out the kinks of doing a team show. Superman became the audience's whipping boy for the quality of the season. I thought it was pretty good towards the end. After "The Brave and The Bold," I was in.

Well, for BBS2, that's an easy one, the audience didn't like Max and that biased their opinion of the whole season based on that. There were a lot of great episodes and follow ups from season 1.

 

[EmaHalJordan]

I don't know anyone who doesn't like Justice League Season 1. Everybody loves her.
Secret Origins is epic, Diana's unforgettable banishment in Paradise Lost, Vandal Savage altering WWII, John Stewart taking the oath in front of OA batery, Aquaman taking his hand off. and much more

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I don't know anyone who doesn't like Justice League Season 1

Huh weird you've been here and haven't really come across people who aren't that big of fans of JL Season 1. Which actually includes the actual writing and creative team of the Justice League series. The staff have said several times that season 1 is easily the weakest season due to the fact they were still learning the ropes of telling these kind of stories and balancing the characters. Though Superman the Animated Series did have guest heroes and Batman Beyond did have that JL Two Parter this was the first in full example of having to take a full roster of heroes and develop and balance them out which means a lot of time was their spent having to figure out what worked and what didn't. BTAS and STAS and BB among others were really focused series with one main key hero and only a few big dynamics. JL though had seven key heroes, 5 of which hadn't been fully set up before so it took some time to really get a full grasp on the characters and their interactions. Not to mention the first was incredibly safe and playing it close to the vest in what they could and couldn't get away with thus having a lot more vanilla plots and set ups and stories then season 2 of JL and JLU would give out. Also first time doing multi part episodes with every story so there was much more weak filler then we'd get going forward. I admit JL season 1 is my least favorite and honestly back when I was collecting DVDs that's the only season I didn't bother getting because yeah totally fine getting season 2 and JLU but not that first sort of vanilla/forgettable of a season.

As for season 2 of Batman Beyond, I don't think that has quite the notoriety of Season one of Justice League. Granted Max as a character is pretty hit and miss (I don't personally click with her but know others that do) especially as she was a producer's note not something the team originally wanted to put in. Also there was probably backlash on the fact the stuff with Derek Powers from season 1 was dropped and for the most part wouldn't come up again so any potential we had with an arc with him and having a huge major specific nemesis for Terry's Batman didn't wind up happening. That's also the season that had to have one of it's ep be a backdoor pilot to The Zeta Project, everyone's least favorite show technically set in the DCAU. Plus due to season 2 being the longest it's also the one that has probably the biggest collection of episodes people are split on whether or not they enjoy. You know "Rats" Terry's Friend Dates A Robot" "Final Cut" The Eggbaby" Payback" and others that can go either way for some people. Which yeah is a lot of reasons but still I don't think it's as noticable weaker like JL season one is to what surrounds it.

 

[Raider969]

Huh weird you've been here and haven't really come across people who aren't that big of fans of JL Season 1. Which actually includes the actual writing and creative team of the Justice League series. The staff have said several times that season 1 is easily the weakest season due to the fact they were still learning the ropes of telling these kind of stories and balancing the characters. Though Superman the Animated Series did have guest heroes and Batman Beyond did have that JL Two Parter this was the first in full example of having to take a full roster of heroes and develop and balance them out which means a lot of time was their spent having to figure out what worked and what didn't. BTAS and STAS and BB among others were really focused series with one main key hero and only a few big dynamics. JL though had seven key heroes, 5 of which hadn't been fully set up before so it took some time to really get a full grasp on the characters and their interactions. Not to mention the first was incredibly safe and playing it close to the vest in what they could and couldn't get away with thus having a lot more vanilla plots and set ups and stories then season 2 of JL and JLU would give out. Also first time doing multi part episodes with every story so there was much more weak filler then we'd get going forward. I admit JL season 1 is my least favorite and honestly back when I was collecting DVDs that's the only season I didn't bother getting because yeah totally fine getting season 2 and JLU but not that first sort of vanilla/forgettable of a season.

As for season 2 of Batman Beyond, I don't think that has quite the notoriety of Season one of Justice League. Granted Max as a character is pretty hit and miss (I don't personally click with her but know others that do) especially as she was a producer's note not something the team originally wanted to put in. Also there was probably backlash on the fact the stuff with Derek Powers from season 1 was dropped and for the most part wouldn't come up again so any potential we had with an arc with him and having a huge major specific nemesis for Terry's Batman didn't wind up happening. That's also the season that had to have one of it's ep be a backdoor pilot to The Zeta Project, everyone's least favorite show technically set in the DCAU. Plus due to season 2 being the longest it's also the one that has probably the biggest collection of episodes people are split on whether or not they enjoy. You know "Rats" Terry's Friend Dates A Robot" "Final Cut" The Eggbaby" Payback" and others that can go either way for some people. Which yeah is a lot of reasons but still I don't think it's as noticable weaker like JL season one is to what surrounds it.

Even though some people don't like Season 1 of Justice League, I still think it is still an important season because some of the stories from all of the later seasons of Justice League continue some stories from season 1. Also I know in the season 2 DVD extras that Bruce Timm said that that season 1 was decent, but it was safe and middle of the road, but where else did the creators say that season 1 of Justice League is the weakest season? I would like to know.

 

[EmaHalJordan]

Huh weird you've been here and haven't really come across people who aren't that big of fans of JL Season 1.

We are talking about a very small number of people who expressed an opinion!
Justice League is loved the entire series by everyone, when they said that in season 1 they were learning how to use the team that does not mean that they say that it is bad.
There are several moments of that season that are unforgettable, to begin with SUPERMAN IN THE WATCHTOWER FORMING THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!

 

[Raider969]

We are talking about a very small number of people who expressed an opinion!
Justice League is loved the entire series by everyone, when they said that in season 1 they were learning how to use the team that does not mean that they say that it is bad.
There are several moments of that season that are unforgettable, to begin with SUPERMAN IN THE WATCHTOWER FORMING THE JUSTICE LEAGUE!
View attachment 294257

Like I said before, Season 1 is still an important season just like any other DCAU Season because of the formation of the Justice League and some of the stories in that season continuing in season 2 of Justice League and in Justice League Unlimited. Also like I said before that Bruce Timm said on one of the Justice League Season 2 extras that Season 1 was a decent show, but it was safe, middle of the road and that it didn't surprise anyone. I don't remember Bruce Timm saying the first season was bad, so I am just curious to know where the creative team, writers and staff said that season 1 of Justice League was the weakest season. Did they say it in one of the other DVD extras because I don't remember?

 

[-batmat-]

Bruce Timm saying that the first season was "was a decent show, but it was safe, middle of the road and that it didn't surprise anyone" makes it the weakest season, since the rest of the series is pretty darn excellent. Being the weakest doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad, just it was the "least good" of them.

Neo Ultra Mike pretty much nailed it. There's always gonna be personal preferences and people who LOVE season 1 (I have a friend who likes Secret Origins more than the first Avengers movie, for example), but in general, trying to have an average of people's views, season 1 is regarded as the weakest one in the show.

 

[Raider969]

Bruce Timm saying that the first season was "was a decent show, but it was safe, middle of the road and that it didn't surprise anyone" makes it the weakest season, since the rest of the series is pretty darn excellent. Being the weakest doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad, just it was the "least good" of them.

Neo Ultra Mike pretty much nailed it. There's always gonna be personal preferences and people who LOVE season 1 (I have a friend who likes Secret Origins more than the first Avengers movie, for example), but in general, trying to have an average of people's views, season 1 is regarded as the weakest one in the show.

I like Secret Origins more than the first Avengers movie too. In fact, as much as I like the MCU movies, I will always like all of the DCAU shows more. And you are right, just because something is the weakest, doesn't mean it is bad. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Stu]

I suspect the main reason is expectations. It must be said that Justice League season one wasn’t close to the quality of Batman/Superman/Beyond and the network insisted on having their way resulted in a massive comedown from Season one in Batman Beyond… although it has to be said that every single episode of Batman Beyond season one is a banger, probably being far, far better than it’s origins should suggest it be.

 

[Raider969]

I suspect the main reason is expectations. It must be said that Justice League season one wasn’t close to the quality of Batman/Superman/Beyond and the network insisted on having their way resulted in a massive comedown from Season one in Batman Beyond… although it has to be said that every single episode of Batman Beyond season one is a banger, probably being far, far better than it’s origins should suggest it be.

Do you think if Season 1 of Justice League had the same kind of writing and quality as Season 2 of Justice League, do you think Justice League would have been considered the best DCAU show?

 

[Classic Speedy]

I watched Justice League for the first time about 15 years after it first aired on TV, and thought season 1 was fine. I mean "The Savage Time" could've easily been a DCAU movie!

 

[Raider969]

I watched Justice League for the first time about 15 years after it first aired on TV, and thought season 1 was fine. I mean "The Savage Time" could've easily been a DCAU movie!

Yeah, I thought Season 1 was fine too.

 

[Jiggle-Bot]

Season 1 had some clunky episodes but it was the show finding its feet. On repeat viewing I'm reminded of how different the show started. Snapper Carr, Supes with his older look, the brighter palette. And things are played more straight. Diana's Lasso of Truth is just a lasso, and no hint that GL's ring doesn't work against yellow.

War World often comes up as one of the worse. An episode that should have been a Superman kicks butt episode but narratively doesn't hit the mark. But it did introduced us to Mongul and the John and Shayera ship got some screen time which was great. Also Supe's tights had an different shade of blue when he was in the dungeons, sort of like his old school colors:

 

[Ed Nygma]

No good villains, simple as that for me. With BB I so craved a little more info on what happened to old staples like Riddler or the final fate of Two Face (I still want that). But we didn't even get more episodes on Blight, who was a series best creation. No Inque, no lasting new villains. We instead got a whole season full of pointless "Buffy" high school drama, and about 26 episodes of Max.

With JL it was kind of the same. While I would've loved to see Ra's on the series, anyone that was a threat in a clever story, season 1 was just dull with pretty tepid animation. Season 2 got it about right. I even like that season better than JL Unlimited, which was great.

 

[Raider969]

So are Justice League Season 1 and Batman Beyond Season 2 considered the weakest seasons of the DCAU? And where exactly did the creators say that Justice League Season 1 was the weakest season of the DCAU?

 

[EmaHalJordan]

Bruce Timm saying that the first season was "was a decent show, but it was safe, middle of the road and that it didn't surprise anyone" makes it the weakest season, since the rest of the series is pretty darn excellent. Being the weakest doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad, just it was the "least good" of them.

Neo Ultra Mike pretty much nailed it. There's always gonna be personal preferences and people who LOVE season 1 (I have a friend who likes Secret Origins more than the first Avengers movie, for example), but in general, trying to have an average of people's views, season 1 is regarded as the weakest one in the show.

"is regarded"? who regarded it? because I don't know anyone who thinks this!
And I'm not talking about us here, I'm talking about the people you know in real life!
Everyone thinks JL is great, I know many people who tell me that they prefer JLU for having many more heroes. But I don't know anyone who makes me a difference between JL season 1 and 2.

They are installing a wrong idea of one of the best shows in history.
At least say that this is what you think but not that "people think" because that is not the case.
There is a very good general opinion of the entire DCAU!

 

[Raider969]

"is regarded"? who regarded it? because I don't know anyone who thinks this!
And I'm not talking about us here, I'm talking about the people you know in real life!
Everyone thinks JL is great, I know many people who tell me that they prefer JLU for having many more heroes. But I don't know anyone who makes me a difference between JL season 1 and 2.

They are installing a wrong idea of one of the best shows in history.
At least say that this is what you think but not that "people think" because that is not the case.
There is a very good general opinion of the DCAU!

Hey, calm down. Not that I disagree with you, I think Season 1 of Justice League is good, but I have seen some people on the internet who say that Justice League Season 1 is one of the weakest seasons of the DCAU. Same thing with Batman Beyond Season 2. I have seen tier lists made by people ranking each season of the DCAU shows. I don't think I can show you them, but most of them had Justice League Season 1 and sometimes Batman Beyond Season 2 either in the bottom or very close to the bottom of their lists, which is the reason I made this topic. I was wondering why they didn't like these seasons as much as the other DCAU Seasons.

By the way just curious, what do you think of each of the DCAU shows?

 

[Revelator]

And where exactly did the creators say that Justice League Season 1 was the weakest season of the DCAU?

I don't think any of them said that, but some have said that JL season 1 was the weakest season of the show:

"When I look back on the first season now, it feels very Silver Age to me, and some of it was intentional and some of it wasn't. Despite what I said about wanting to make sure the characters were all, personality-wise, different from each other, there is a certain kind of blandness, I think, in the first season. I think the character dynamics weren't quite what we could have done with them; we could have mixed it up even more. Part of it was maybe a reaction to what had happened with Batman Beyond and Return of the Joker. ... Batman Beyond was supposed to be a kids' show and it really wasn't.

"It seemed to me--and maybe it was a reaction to Superfriends--that Justice League would lend itself to be much more of a kid-friendly show than what we had done on Batman Beyond or even the regular Batman show. So without trying to dumb it down or anything, I think we were making a conscious effort to make it a little more of a family-friendly show, but unfortunately by pulling back on some of the more adult storylines, we didn't really replace it with anything. The shows really have no edge at all, very little. Something of a blandness set it with the show. We made steps to remedy that situation in season two, and to the point where the season two episodes make a much better show across the board. We're constantly calling it 'new, improved Justice League.'"

-- Bruce Timm, Modern Masters, Volume 3

You can also see the show's creators discuss some drawbacks of the first season in [removed link] (a Justice League Season 1) DVD extra.

There's also this comment from James Tucker:
"The first season is very basic and that was actually conscious. We didn’t feel there was time to give depth to each character. We thought we were going to be doing big operatic shows that were all about the big story, and not really deal with the private lives, the romantic lives and all of that. Even though we set up certain things, like the GL and Hawkgirl romance, from the start, the stories were very basic. Unfortunately, in hindsight, the stories could have been a lot more character-driven and deeper. It’s good for what it is, but I think we definitely upped the situation in season two.”

 

[Raider969]

I don't think any of them said that, but some have said that JL season 1 was the weakest season of the show:

"When I look back on the first season now, it feels very Silver Age to me, and some of it was intentional and some of it wasn't. Despite what I said about wanting to make sure the characters were all, personality-wise, different from each other, there is a certain kind of blandness, I think, in the first season. I think the character dynamics weren't quite what we could have done with them; we could have mixed it up even more. Part of it was maybe a reaction to what had happened with Batman Beyond and Return of the Joker. ... Batman Beyond was supposed to be a kids' show and it really wasn't.

"It seemed to me--and maybe it was a reaction to Superfriends--that Justice League would lend itself to be much more of a kid-friendly show than what we had done on Batman Beyond or even the regular Batman show. So without trying to dumb it down or anything, I think we were making a conscious effort to make it a little more of a family-friendly show, but unfortunately by pulling back on some of the more adult storylines, we didn't really replace it with anything. The shows really have no edge at all, very little. Something of a blandness set it with the show. We made steps to remedy that situation in season two, and to the point where the season two episodes make a much better show across the board. We're constantly calling it 'new, improved Justice League.'"

-- Bruce Timm, Modern Masters, Volume 3

You can also see the show's creators discuss some drawbacks of the first season in [removed link] (a Justice League Season 1) DVD extra.

There's also this comment from James Tucker:
"The first season is very basic and that was actually conscious. We didn’t feel there was time to give depth to each character. We thought we were going to be doing big operatic shows that were all about the big story, and not really deal with the private lives, the romantic lives and all of that. Even though we set up certain things, like the GL and Hawkgirl romance, from the start, the stories were very basic. Unfortunately, in hindsight, the stories could have been a lot more character-driven and deeper. It’s good for what it is, but I think we definitely upped the situation in season two.”

Ok, I see, thanks for the reply and quotes from the creators about Justice League Season 1. So when they said that season 1 was the weakest season of the show, does that include Justice League Unlimited or not?