"Harley Quinn" Season Four Talkback (Spoilers)

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Yojimbo

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"Killer's Block" brings season four to an explosive close filled with destruction, victories, new starts, returns, and teases of payback. Harley and Ivy make a decision on where they stand in the world of heroes and villains but when enemies fall, new ones rise up.

I thought Season four's finale was perfectly executed with the right balance of action, humor, action, twists, and setting up a probable fifth season. I was fine with not wasting any time with Harley finding the Joker but she can't figure out the best way to kill him. And with her indecision, hilariously Joker is totally humiliated throughout the episode in front of the villain community. Suffice to say, his comeback has backfired and not sure if there's a way back from being led around on a leash at Lex Luthor's birthday party. But Harley decided to leave him with Jim Gordon just as he learns Joker was one who shot his daughter. And Jim's ready to torture him in an odd flip the script when it comes to a nod to Killing Joke. Barbara's been crippled by Joker's gunshot but that's the only similarity. Instead of Joker torturing Gordon to make a point, Gordon's gonna torture the hell out of Joker in revenge. I guess it's ok to finally see Jim galvanized about something after so long...

The other story is Ivy not being satisfied with ousting Lex from Lexcorp and shutting down the Earth Saver and deciding to ruin his birthday party and take him down for good. Sounds like a plan but plans on this show tend to... not work out. So all the weird things Lex was doing this season was because his plan was to steal Superman's powers for himself. Okay, points for that twist. And Lex didn't really even need them to defeat Ivy, just attack her insecurity by confirming her ascension to leading the Legion of Doom was just a farce to keep the seat warm while he worked on his personal project to power up. And everyone shows their true colors – no one in the Legion of Doom helps her (though I'm sure the Disasters would've if they were at the party), the usual advice of the Evil Women in Business Collective doesn't help, no one cared about socially conscious evil, Talia dumps Ivy and ultimately, it's Harley who has Ivy's back. And together, they decide neither was going to work out as a hero and villain respectively: they don't do rules, they can't join and change the systems in place, and there were always outsiders so they should stick to that! Took 'em four seasons and a special but they've figured that out. Harley didn't need to be in the Legion, didn't need to prove to anyone she's better than Joker, Ivy didn't need to get married, Harley didn't need to be a hero, Ivy didn't need to be a supervillain and lead the Legion. All they need is each other (and sometimes Barbara and Catwoman) and mayhem will follow.

Freed of their new roles, Harley and Ivy return to their wild card, chaotic ways and the back half of the season becomes sheer entertaining carnage. Thanks to the only real friendships they struck up this season, Harley and Ivy easily defeats Lex thanks to Barbara Gordon and Steppenwolf. Then focus on totally torching Gotham City with a space laser. Ivy knows how to burn bridges in style. Talia and Veronica take one to the portfolios when Ivy targets and destroys the EWIBC and Wayne Tech buildings then the ultimate middle finger to Lex, blows up the Hall of Doom in Gotham and Lexor Hotel in Vegas and keeps firing even though it continues to destabilize the Moon. An added bonus is Clayface's luck seems to have run out and to add insult to injury, is in the Lexor Hotel when Ivy blows it up. I mean, sure he probably survived but Clayface hitting rock bottom figuratively and literally by the end of another season tracks. But in a neutral third party kind of way, Harley saves the emaciated powerless Superman at the last second. Lucky thing, he more or less fixes up the Moon once his powers return.

But of course it wouldn't been a Harley Quinn show or season finale if their actions don't have unintended consequences. Seeing the chaos unfold jilts Bruce Wayne into getting out of prison and returning to being Batman. But inadvertently (and hilariously) the whole thing puts a screw to Alfred's plan to reunite with him in Blackgate! And they've made an enemy of Talia who resurrects Nightwing with the Lazarus Pit at her hot springs and naturally, Nightwing is gunning for Harley. It was also a nice moment when Harley acknowledges Barbara and thanks her in the cemetery. So now, it seems Harley, Ivy, Barbara and Catwoman will be operating as the Gotham City Sirens – do a bit of good, a bit of bad, but mostly do want they feel like matters without being held down by rules or systems. In a way, Ivy got her all-female LOD after all. And they already got their first mission but got a feeling that "mission" is gonna find them first.

As of right now, what's the status of the show? Unofficially, there's two clues a season five is already in development. On Twitter when it was still called Twitter a few months ago, director Kiki Manrique made a now-deleted post saying she started work on Harley Quinn right around the time post production on season four would be winding down. And in the EIDR, an entertainment database where show and movie information is posted, a season five is already listed. While that's a not a given if it's on EIDR, the writing is on the wall. And the show has clearly left a starting point for season five should it happen. In the meantime, while we wait for Max and Warner Bros. Animation to make the official announcement way after the point when they should, the Kite-Man: Hell Yeah! 10 episode spin-off series will be premiering at some point between now and next year. Not announced yet but hopefully, we'll be seeing the Valentine's Day special and season four on Blu-ray by next year.

That's a wrap on Harley Quinn season four! "Killer's Block" completes Harley and Ivy's exploration of their new roles as hero and villain... well not such as complete as much as them quitting and deciding what's best is they do their own thing and form their own team. And looks like Barbara Gordon and Catwoman will be along for the ride. Gotham City can't catch a break as usual and takes some space lasers to the balls, obliterating major business headquarters like Wayne Tech and EWIBC but Batman and Superman are back in business, along with... Nightwing?! Don't think there's "revenge" in the hero code so things could be heating up. The Legion of Doom is headquarter-less, not the first time, but now they're leader-less. Who's gonna take up the reigns? Regardless, the Sirens already have a formidable big bad to deal with in Talia al Ghul as well as a pretty angry Nightwing. Once again, the chess board has been reset after it's been smashed to a bloody pulp and I enjoyed every second of that ride. And what's coming next is looking as intriguing and entertaining as always for this streaming series.

but it is fitting and I guess also due punishment of him being taken away by Steppenwolf at the end... not sure for what but hopefully that means we're focusing on someone else as a main bad guy in this episode.
I wondered if had to do with the offer he made to Ivy at the end. Instead of rushing into a business deal, they settled on hanging out first and doing favors for each other. Would be interesting if he backs the Sirens.

Also I didn't like the joke with Alfred now finally going to Blackwood just as Bruce was leaving though I will say if the season opens with Bruce springing Alfred out (like it's not like he's going to let his butler stew in prison) and Alfred acting steamed at him it would be worth it.
Blackgate. But yeah, it would be much more fun if he and Alvin are competing for approval in the manor.

Now from season 2 we know there was a Jason Todd in this universe who died but don't know if there was a Red Hood so... could it be possible that in this universe it will be Dick who becomes Red Hood in pursuit of his revenge against Harley cause that would be cool to see.
Red Hood's been established to be around. He's in Harley's call list and the design is the Todd version. It was in I think the first episode this season when she's in CleggBucks. They also almost had Todd/Hood in Noonan's in season 1 but decided against it.
 

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Harley's back in her old costume and back to cracking skulls. I should've figured Joker's almost equally as psychotic family would try to protect him, but Harley threatening the kids was something :rolleyes2:.

Even Joker points out how repetitive these moments between him and Harley are getting. He kills someone she loves, she tries to but ultimately doesn't kill him...ultimately this season has just been repeating and resetting characters to a degree. Although to be honest I feel like this version of Babs, at this point, would've been fine with Harley killing Joker. Or at least I feel like Babs deserved to confront him herself :confused:.

I don't really like how they handled Babs' paralysis. It felt like we jumped ahead too quickly to her recovery and treating it fairly glibly rather than as such a pivotal and tragic moment for her character, but I guess that's the norm for the show. And she's still acting surly around Harley. Are they even really friends :shrug:?

Why is she in the hospital as Batgirl instead of Barbara? So Harley can visit her without drawing attention to her? But her dad is there in the hospital too o_O?

They even turn Gordon's grief into yet another comedy bit. I dunno, I know this show is primarily a comedy but I feel like some moments need to be treated with more gravity :(.

I'm not surprised at Livewire's first time, or that Ra's put Talia through an orgy, yet I'm surprised Veronica Cale's first was her husband. Actually I'm just surprised by her husband in general, he seems like a surprisingly chill and cool dude not at all intimidated by his wife's success :).

Kind of underwhelmed that they made Ivy seemingly the only ambitious female villain while the rest are satisfied with still playing the game and not completely upending the patriarchy. Not sure that benefitted their characterization much :sad:.

This season has really not been kind to Superman. I was almost expecting Harley would leave him to die :sweat:.

The Warsuit! I love how Lex basically rips-off Superman's power and hair. I can only imagine this is a continuity where Superman is responsible for Lex losing his hair. I also like how they didn't try to spin it that Harley and Ivy actually stood a chance against Superman, basically :p.

Okay, yeah, the Bat-Family was kind of hard on Harley and thought less of her...but Harley kind of brought it on herself at times and she basically validated every concern the Batfamily had about her when she killed Nightwing and covered it up. That was on her :mad:.

So Harley and Ivy are "outsiders" who don't fit with either the heroes or villains...I guess that's consistent with the shows' messaging and how all over the place both ladies can be, yet at the same time no matter how many times they try to spin it that Harley cares about civilians, they both seem like such awful people to anyone but themselves that I can't really buy it :robin:.

So his ward and adoptive son gets murdered...but the city getting lasered from the sky is when it's finally time for him to become Batman again and get out prison? Which he seemingly could've done at any moment? I don't even expect this to amount to much because the writers don't really treat Batman as anything more than comedy relief at this point. It doesn't feel like Bruce learned anything anyways :rolleyes:.

Honestly I was thinking Harley and Ivy's rampant laser fire was going to cause the apocalypse they were responsible for :eek:.

Clayface totally survived that, right? I'm sure he did :).

Poor Alfred. Gets busted for insider trading just so he can get into Blackgate...and Bruce is already gone. Though it seems like he expects Alfred to get out immediately so...status quo to be restored :p?

Do I want to know what's in store for Lex on Apokolips :oops:?

Harley leaving Joker for Gordon felt fitting enough, though, but I'm curious what Jim will actually do with him :(.

It's cool to see the Gotham City Sirens finally formed as a group in animation...but Catwoman's been such a no-show this season that it feels kind of random. Although considering Harley's crew evaporated, the Batfamily ended up falling apart once she joined, I wonder if there isn't a bright future ahead for the GSC :elle:.

Babs quitting the Batfamily to, I presume, become Oracle for the GCS just rings hollow to me, because you know it's because of Harley's influence but it just rings so artificial knowing how Harley is, how little their friendship really felt genuine this season, and that Harley lied to her about Nightwing's death. Now the last thing will probably come back to bite Harley next season, but as it is I really didn't like how they handled Babs this season :quinn:.

Finally someone is revived with a Lazarus Pit! But we've barely seen Damian and Dick even interact this season so it just felt a little forced. I guess Talia and Dick will be the main antagonists next season? Though Nightwing has a genuine grudge against Harley, I can't help but think they'll still treat him as nothing more than a jerk with a nice butt :mad:.
 

Yojimbo

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Kind of underwhelmed that they made Ivy seemingly the only ambitious female villain while the rest are satisfied with still playing the game and not completely upending the patriarchy. Not sure that benefitted their characterization much :sad:.
If you remember Queen of Fables' back story in season 1, this reveal about Talia and Cale's real nature isn't that much of a deal breaker. They get as far as they can from within the system without rocking the boat. Seems better than getting banished to a tax law book.

It's cool to see the Gotham City Sirens finally formed as a group in animation...but Catwoman's been such a no-show this season that it feels kind of random. Although considering Harley's crew evaporated, the Batfamily ended up falling apart once she joined, I wonder if there isn't a bright future ahead for the GSC :elle:.
Less is more with this show's Catwoman, imo. Friends come and go in life. In this show, teams come and go. 50:50 the Sirens are still together by the end of season 5 if there is one. There has to be one.

I really didn't like how they handled Babs this season :quinn:.
Really? You were so subtle about that this season. :p
 

Eldorado

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If Nightwing was revived in The Lazarus Pit and came out more savage, then where is Red Hood gonna fit in all this. After all, he was in Harley's list of contacts.
 

Frontier

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If you remember Queen of Fables' back story in season 1, this reveal about Talia and Cale's real nature isn't that much of a deal breaker. They get as far as they can from within the system without rocking the boat. Seems better than getting banished to a tax law book.
I guess, it's just I expect a little more from these characters...especially Talia, but that might play into season 5. Maybe she'll go full Leviathan Talia :p.
Less is more with this show's Catwoman, imo. Friends come and go in life. In this show, teams come and go. 50:50 the Sirens are still together by the end of season 5 if there is one. There has to be one.
Well, yeah, I didn't miss her and her constant "look at how cool and uncaring I am...or am I?" either :rolleyes2:.

I guess it's just I miss the dynamic of the Crew, I feel like they didn't utilize the Batfamily well this season, so it just irks me more. But I guess most fans only care about Harley and Ivy :confused:.
Really? You were so subtle about that this season. :p
Some things need to be said. Especially in this episode :).
 

Fone Bone

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Harley Quinn "Killer's Block"

Great ending with Nightwing. I can live with that.

Bruce could have gotten out any time he wanted? This Batman is lazy. The fact that he apparently doesn't give a crap or even know about what's been going on with Nightwing and Batgirl also says he sucks.

Seriously, Alfred. You are destroying your life for the wrong person.

This version of Gordon is not the type to want to "do it right" when bringing in the guy who shot his daughter in the back.

Good.

I just realized. They didn't just start the Gotham City Sirens OR the Birds of Prey at the end. The specific line-up of Babs, Harley, Ivy, and Selina is the DCAU Gotham Girls! Full-stop!

I don't mind that Harley threatened Joker's kids. They ain't exactly innocent bystanders.

Good to dedicate the episode to Arlene Sorkin.

I felt this was a good place to leave things. Crazily enough, I do not retract my complaints about last week. I can think things turned out a-ight and still have those stand. ****.
 

Yojimbo

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I guess, it's just I expect a little more from these characters...especially Talia, but that might play into season 5. Maybe she'll go full Leviathan Talia :p.
Perhaps. She did hint to Ivy she's got some business plan about taking anti-aging to its legal limits. Maybe that plays into her arc next season. I don't think she goes full-villain, that wouldn't be interesting or par for the show. I think resurrecting Nightwing is payback for blowing up Wayne Tech (she was still the conservator) and maybe to distract the Sirens while she makes her moves.

I guess it's just I miss the dynamic of the Crew, I feel like they didn't utilize the Batfamily well this season, so it just irks me more. But I guess most fans only care about Harley and Ivy :confused:.
Yeah, I miss the Crew, too. But the show thrives on being impetuous and changing the dynamics. I think of it as the Crew years as high school, season 3 college - the high school friends drift apart, season 4 - some aren't talking to e/o anymore and they got their own lives now. Clayface is so that post-college friend that finally gets a win but gets a fat head about it.

Some things need to be said. Especially in this episode :).
I don't think any animation will spend an arc or season on Barbara dealing with being crippled. In animation, hasn't it always treated as past tense or they do it then a time skip to when she's already operating as Oracle with no PTSD. I think YJ was the only time when it's revealed in a flashback. The notion that this Barbara essentially compartmentalizes it and wants to continue working is not a surprise or a detriment to the show. She was close to a Jim Gordon meltdown this season but she bounced back thankfully. Would have felt wrong if she became a drunk angry Batgirl for the rest of the season.

I don't think her quitting the Bat Family rang hollow. Their portrayal - emo jerk Nightwing, disinterested, video game playing brat Robin (and the 'preview' of how he turns out in the possible future), Batman esp. in season 3 and here with how lame it was that Bruce could have left anytime, she's better off without them. She idolized Batman and her dad and their ideal traits of justice and being a hero are a good foundation for her beliefs but being there when Harley and Ivy took down Riddler in season 2 is what really galvanized her into action. I thought her joining the Bat Family was her learning that old adage of don't meet your heroes. In a (maybe unfortunate) way, Harley and Ivy were the ones who brought Batgirl to the 'real world' and things aren't so black and white (i.e. don't follow the rules so rigidly, do what matters to you). Harley acknowledging and thanking Babs in the cemetery was a small short moment but such a big full circle moment for both characters. Harley always trying to push her off, never calling her a friend etc. (ironic with the voice actors being sisters). The only real concern I have regarding Babs for a season 5 is they relegate her to the team techie/ally at the computer.
 

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Perhaps. She did hint to Ivy she's got some business plan about taking anti-aging to its legal limits. Maybe that plays into her arc next season. I don't think she goes full-villain, that wouldn't be interesting or par for the show. I think resurrecting Nightwing is payback for blowing up Wayne Tech (she was still the conservator) and maybe to distract the Sirens while she makes her moves.
Well, she seemed to do it for Damian's sake (not that Damian and Dick seemed very close) and she had no idea Harley killed Nightwing so I don't think it was intentionally to go after Harley. That was just a nice bonus.

I am curious what's going on with Ra's.
Yeah, I miss the Crew, too. But the show thrives on being impetuous and changing the dynamics. I think of it as the Crew years as high school, season 3 college - the high school friends drift apart, season 4 - some aren't talking to e/o anymore and they got their own lives now. Clayface is so that post-college friend that finally gets a win but gets a fat head about it.
I guess it fits the shows' tone and style but at the same time the show feels a little less focused compared to before because it jumps to so many different things.
I don't think any animation will spend an arc or season on Barbara dealing with being crippled. In animation, hasn't it always treated as past tense or they do it then a time skip to when she's already operating as Oracle with no PTSD. I think YJ was the only time when it's revealed in a flashback. The notion that this Barbara essentially compartmentalizes it and wants to continue working is not a surprise or a detriment to the show. She was close to a Jim Gordon meltdown this season but she bounced back thankfully. Would have felt wrong if she became a drunk angry Batgirl for the rest of the season.

I don't think her quitting the Bat Family rang hollow. Their portrayal - emo jerk Nightwing, disinterested, video game playing brat Robin (and the 'preview' of how he turns out in the possible future), Batman esp. in season 3 and here with how lame it was that Bruce could have left anytime, she's better off without them. She idolized Batman and her dad and their ideal traits of justice and being a hero are a good foundation for her beliefs but being there when Harley and Ivy took down Riddler in season 2 is what really galvanized her into action. I thought her joining the Bat Family was her learning that old adage of don't meet your heroes. In a (maybe unfortunate) way, Harley and Ivy were the ones who brought Batgirl to the 'real world' and things aren't so black and white (i.e. don't follow the rules so rigidly, do what matters to you). Harley acknowledging and thanking Babs in the cemetery was a small short moment but such a big full circle moment for both characters. Harley always trying to push her off, never calling her a friend etc. (ironic with the voice actors being sisters). The only real concern I have regarding Babs for a season 5 is they relegate her to the team techie/ally at the computer.
Yeah, but I feel like having it happen in real time with the show rather than as something that happened off-screen or in a time skip (man, YJ loved important stuff happening in time-skips), there was some motivation to treat it with the degree of seriousness or severity that it deserves, but that really isn't the show's style. I was thinking more something like Oracle: Year One, but that probably wouldn't fly in a Harley show.

Oh totally the Batfamily was really dysfunctional but Babs didn't seem really self-aware of any of that, and I don't think they've ever really justified the type of idol worship or impact Harley and Ivy have on Babs because it's mostly been Babs deluding herself about Harley and Ivy or their antics (especially Harley) and reading intent that isn't really there on their part. Also Babs had also been kind of dismissive and tough on Harley this season, ironic when now Harley was trying so hard to be her "best friend," so there was a bit of an emotional disconnect there.

Also that Harley lied to her about killing Nightwing which just paints a bad picture of their entire relationship.

I don't expect Babs playing Oracle for the GSC is going to work as well as it does with the BoP.
 

Yojimbo

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Well, she seemed to do it for Damian's sake (not that Damian and Dick seemed very close) and she had no idea Harley killed Nightwing so I don't think it was intentionally to go after Harley. That was just a nice bonus.
Her doing something for Damian? I didn't buy it.

Yeah, but I feel like having it happen in real time with the show rather than as something that happened off-screen or in a time skip (man, YJ loved important stuff happening in time-skips), there was some motivation to treat it with the degree of seriousness or severity that it deserves, but that really isn't the show's style. I was thinking more something like Oracle: Year One, but that probably wouldn't fly in a Harley show.
Yeah, doesn't seem like any room for it in a Harley show. But who knows, maybe it could be an arc for her next season.

Oh totally the Batfamily was really dysfunctional but Babs didn't seem really self-aware of any of that, and I don't think they've ever really justified the type of idol worship or impact Harley and Ivy have on Babs because it's mostly been Babs deluding herself about Harley and Ivy or their antics (especially Harley) and reading intent that isn't really there on their part. Also Babs had also been kind of dismissive and tough on Harley this season, ironic when now Harley was trying so hard to be her "best friend," so there was a bit of an emotional disconnect there.
I'm pretty sure there was at least one instance she knew more than she let on. Like telling Harley, you really thought Nightwing would accept you? Harley and Ivy had their own thing going on, I took their resistance as three's a crowd. I took it as Batgirl was trying to be objective and be the tough coach so Harl would succeed as a hero but that was a fail across the board.

Also that Harley lied to her about killing Nightwing which just paints a bad picture of their entire relationship.

I don't expect Babs playing Oracle for the GSC is going to work as well as it does with the BoP.
Yes, with Nightwing back, I think the lie will be exposed next season and probably break up Harley and Babs probably right when they finally getting along.
 

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Her doing something for Damian? I didn't buy it.
Watch him become Heretic :p.
I'm pretty sure there was at least one instance she knew more than she let on. Like telling Harley, you really thought Nightwing would accept you? Harley and Ivy had their own thing going on, I took their resistance as three's a crowd. I took it as Batgirl was trying to be objective and be the tough coach so Harl would succeed as a hero but that was a fail across the board.
I guess at the end of the day every character on this show is a hot mess no matter how much they try to act like they're not :sweat:.
Yes, with Nightwing back, I think the lie will be exposed next season and probably break up Harley and Babs probably right when they finally getting along.
It's going to rub me the wrong way if she ends up forgiving Harley or just accepts/justify her killing Dick.
 

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I want a Season 5 for the sake of Harley facing the consequences of her actions from previous seasons. The fact that she's Still’s lying to Barbara about who killed Nightwing is not a healthy base for a relationship. She has not earned a clean ending like that, being a villain, finding being a hero too hard and thus settling on being neutral while still doing horrible things just because of her mood swings...That's not a good moral, even for a show headlined by a supervillain, hero, anti-heroine, whatever. There is a layer of gray in that she didn't mean to do it compared to unapologetic murderers like the Joker, but she's still covering her tracks like a villain.

That being said, I loved the idea of Harley backsliding into villainy to do the deed, my kudos to the showrunners for not softening the blow by having it be a set-up and the red herring that was potato Harley.
 

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Seasons 3 and 4 have been very underwhelming for me. First 2 seasons were really good, a great satire of the DC Universe. Characters were spoofs of themselves, which made it all very funny. Starting with season 3, most characters just started being idiots. And that's where the show lost its charm to me. For a show that's supposed to be a comedy, I hardly laughed this last 2 seasons. If there's a season 5, I hope they work on this,
 

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