"A Flightless Bird": Paul Williams and the Penguin...

[Karkull]

There's a lovely article on Cracked right now where they interview Dave Goelz, the puppeteer who performs the Great Gonzo, among others. Anyway, among the many revelations, there's a discussion about when he performed the Paul Williams' song "I'm Going to Go Back There Someday" for The Muppet Movie. During this part of the interview, Goelz says this: "I’ll tell you what Paul says. He identified with Gonzo as a flightless bird, and because of Paul’s stature, he said he always felt like that. He identified with that sort of predicament in life."

Obviously, the reason I'm posting this here is because Paul Williams is best known among our circles for performing Oswald Cobblepot, the Penguin, for BTAS and TNBA. I find it quite fitting that Paul Williams would come to embody the "flightless bird" for DCAU fans, and I'd be interested to hear if there was any interviews with Williams regarding his animated role.

 

[ABrown]

I wish he would've been brought back to voice Penguin in Mystery of the Batwoman.

 

[#TeamMike]

I wish he would've been brought back to voice Penguin in Mystery of the Batwoman.

Bruce Timm didn't agree with the decision either.

Williams did recently get to voice Brainiac in Superman: Red Son movie, which was neat.

 

[-batmat-]

Bruce Timm didn't agree with the decision either.

Interesting. So it sounds like recasting Penguin for MOTB was on purpose? I always thought Williams wasn't available or something like that so they HAD to recast. Why would you recast Penguin?? Head scratching decision!

 

[Yojimbo]

Interesting. So it sounds like recasting Penguin for MOTB was on purpose? I always thought Williams wasn't available or something like that so they HAD to recast. Why would you recast Penguin?? Head scratching decision!

I'm surprised no one asked Alan Burnett about it yet. Andrea Romano seems to have reached out to the cast to reprise but in Mathew Valencia's case, there was a clerical error at his agency and he never got Andrea's message which led to a Robin recast (Around 26:18 in this Watchtower Database interview).

 

[#TeamMike]

Interesting. So it sounds like recasting Penguin for MOTB was on purpose? I always thought Williams wasn't available or something like that so they HAD to recast. Why would you recast Penguin?? Head scratching decision!

Of course. Recasts in situations like this is done because a producer isn't a fan of the previous voice or wanted a different take.

In the case of Penguin in MOTB, in this interview Alan Burnett says he wanted to bring a "big boss" element to the character, and make the character sound more threatening (couldn't link the url directly here for whatever reason, but the interview is linked in the wiki page).

My opinion is that Odgen Stiers gave a fine performance, but it's nothing Williams couldn't have done. Williams had a really nice distinct voice for the character, and this movie could have given him a chance to show a more menacing side (it's not the actors fault Penguin had the misfortune of starring in some of the worst B:TAS episodes). Plus, Williams already showed a menacing take in TNBA.

I'm surprised no one asked Alan Burnett about it yet.

Answered above

Andrea Romano seems to have reached out to the cast to reprise but in Mathew Valencia's case, there was a clerical error at his agency and he never got Andrea's message which led to a Robin recast (Around 26:18 in this Watchtower Database interview).

According to DCAU wiki, Valencia hit puberty and sounded old for the role.

Robin is given a slightly older character model than in The New Batman Adventures and the flashback sequence in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker (which takes place after Static Shock and Justice League Unlimited) and is now voiced by Eli Marienthal. According to Alan Burnett, the previous voice actor Mathew Valencia hit puberty and sounded too old for the character.[9] Marienthal would also play the late-teens Robin in Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman.

This is from the "The Big Leagues" trivia section.

 

[-batmat-]

According to DCAU wiki, Valencia hit puberty and sounded old for the role.

According to Alan Burnett, the previous voice actor Mathew Valencia hit puberty and sounded too old for the character

Maybe that was something of a more diplomatic answer when asked about it instead of saying "we never hear back from him when we asked him to do the Batwoman movie".. just a thought!

 

[#TeamMike]

Maybe that was something of a more diplomatic answer when asked about it instead of saying "we never hear back from him when we asked him to do the Batwoman movie".. just a thought!

I think Burnett was telling the truth, otherwise it would be a weird thing to lie about. Even in the flashback scene in ROTJ (his two lines), Robin's voice is quite deeper. Tbh, I think Tim's voice was pretty interchangeable, so I can't say I care either way.

But back to Penguin, it was just a bad, pointless decision for what ended up being a forgettable DTV movie anyway.

Was also kind of miffed at how they brought back Rupert Thorne and gave him literally nothing to do. All he did was stand in the background shuffling cards.

 

[Karkull]

Was also kind of miffed at how they brought back Rupert Thorne and gave him literally nothing to do. All he did was stand in the background shuffling cards.

Anyone else get a sense that Thorne was experimenting with a gimmick? I got the sense that this was his big return after getting taken out in "Shadow of the Bat," it was almost like he was demoing a look similar to Two-Face's coin flip. He knew that the old gangsters were being phased out, so he was trying to fit in with the new guard.

 

[-batmat-]

I think Burnett was telling the truth, otherwise it would be a weird thing to lie about. Even in the flashback scene in ROTJ (his two lines), Robin's voice is quite deeper. Tbh, I think Tim's voice was pretty interchangeable, so I can't say I care either way.

I was just saying, because there appears to be evidence that Valencia was actually contacted to do Batwoman. If he never got the messege because of his agent, and then they had to get someone else, why would Burnett say they got someone else because Valencia's voice had changed? And as you said, Valencia's voice had changed already by the time they did RTOJ, and they didn't seem to mind then! But that was different people in charge I guess.

I don't think it's necessarily a lie, it's just not very diplomatic to say in an interview that they contacted the actor and didn't hear back from him, you're kinda badmouthing him if you do that, so he went with a "safe" answer. Just a theory to have both stories match and not contradict themselves.

But back to Penguin, it was just a bad, pointless decision for what ended up being a forgettable DTV movie anyway.

Was also kind of miffed at how they brought back Rupert Thorne and gave him literally nothing to do. All he did was stand in the background shuffling cards.

Agree on both accounts. Regarding Thorne, I guess that's what happens when you have more "colorful" villains like Penguin and Bane in the mix, and you give a bit more importance in the plot to Kathy and his dad's storyline. Each of the Batwomen had a grudge with each of the 3 villains, but Sonia and Thorne probably got the least attention in the movie.

 

[Revelator]

One of the special features on the Blu-ray of the Phantom of the Paradise includes an interview with Paul Williams where he says the two things he's most known for are appearing in Phantom and voicing the Penguin. He also discussed voicing the Penguin in an interview with Hero Magazine:

Oh, it’s great. It’s a great batch of actors, and nobody has to get dressed up. We can come at it just funky, and sit down and do it. And you don’t have to memorize your lines, you just sit there and do it. Part of the joy of it, too, is having a really great director, Andrea is terrific.

Doing the Penguin is strange. I didn’t read for it—they just decided they wanted me to come in and do it—and I’m very grateful for that. If they had called and said they wanted me to read for it, I would have said no. There’s no way in the world I could ever do this part, based on having heard Burgess Meredith do it. I love Burgess Meredith’s Penguin, so I didn’t think I could do this. When I think of the Penguin, I think of Meredith.

I do him a little more erudite. He still has the caustic cynical tone, but he’s also kind of sophisticated. I don't think it’s so much the way I play him but the way he’s written.

Incidentally, Williams is a wonderfully creepy villain in Phantom of the Paradise, and you can see why the BTAS crew saw it and thought of him as the Penguin. Unfortunately the character is one of those Golden Age/Silver Age icons that's difficult to effectively modernize. BTAS was stuck with the Batman Returns design but its otherwise much different conception of the Penguin didn't really jell until "Birds of a Feather." In TNBA he was effectively re-designed, but while the Iceberg Lounge was a good gimmick, it also tied him down somewhat. I've always thought that the Penguin was most effective in his earliest comic appearances, when he was a dapper, suave and smiling little gentleman who also happened to be an utterly ruthless stone-cold killer. A man who radiates charm but pisses ice-water.

 

[b.t.]

Incidentally, Williams is a wonderfully creepy villain in Phantom of the Paradise, and you can see why the BTAS saw it and thought of him as the Penguin.

At this late date, I honestly don’t remember who first came up with the idea to cast Paul as the Penguin. It might have been me, but if it wasn’t, I’m sure I didn’t hesitate to second the motion with gusto.

I definitely had PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE very much in mind when we cast Paul as Brainiac in SUPERMAN: RED SON. Having Paul’s distinctive voice with that buzzy, metallic, ‘voice box’ filter on top was meant to sound like a twisted Swan/Winslow hybrid — the Phantom Phan in me couldn’t resist. A little Easter Egg homage to one of my all-time favorite movies.

That he turned out to be a perfect fit for that particular story — he’s quirky and charming when he’s pretending to be Kal-El’s tame pet robot and chillingly scary when his true nature is revealed — was almost a bonus (just kidding, of course— I knew he’d be great).

And yes, he is absolutely wonderful in PHANTOM.

 

[Yojimbo]

In terms of 'pairings', I preferred Paul Williams voicing the TNBA designed Penguin translated the best because it always felt like from BTAS they were taking inspiration from the Jack Burnley take from the 50s. Nothing against the BTAS design or Williams voicing him but it just looks very Batman Returns and in the back of my head is always "DeVito!"

Also dug his Brainiac. Totally forgot Williams also voiced a goon in the Hugo Strange BTAS episode. I think the first time I saw/heard Paul Williams on screen was likely on Smokey and the Bandit. He also has a long musical career, had a hand in a lot of hits from back in the day.

 

[-batmat-]

I think there's something there that totally works when The Penguin gets as ugly as it gets, yet his voice and mannerisms are the complete opposite, as refined as possible. There's something genius about that contradiction in the character. So while it's logic that Paul's voice fits the TNBA design more, that contradiction happening with his BTAS design is wonderful to me.

 

[b.t.]

In terms of 'pairings', I preferred Paul Williams voicing the TNBA designed Penguin translated the best…

Me too. So glad we were finally able to pair Paul’s vocals with the ‘Classic’ Penguin design.

He also has a long musical career, had a hand in a lot of hits from back in the day.

A quick handful of favorites : Three Dog Night’s ’Just An Old-Fashioned Love Song’, and three sublime masterpieces from The Carpenters, ‘We’ve Only Just Begun’, ‘Rainy Days and Mondays’ and ‘I Won’t Last A Day Without You’. And of course I wore the grooves off his PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE Soundtrack Album.

 

[Revelator]

Two other Three Dog Night classics co-written by Williams: "Family of Man" and "Out in the Country."

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I'll always love DeVito's wildly operatic, tragic and twisted take on The Penguin. The ''legitimate businessman'' version always seemed bland to me in comparison.

The B:TAS version felt like a nice middle ground between the gentleman and the criminal.